Understanding True Deliverance

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I thoroughly enjoyed last week's episode with Dawn Hill.

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How did you react to what was said?

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Use the link in the show notes to leave me a comment.

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Whatever your position on deliverance ministry, you will be excited for today's episode.

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My guest, dr David Chotka, returns to the show to pick up where we left off during our last conversation.

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In episode eight we discuss the five healing pathways and his role in the deliverance movement.

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His views may shock you, anger you or you may resonate with them.

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Whatever your position, hear him out, because he is a fount of wisdom and has a strong heart for God.

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You will benefit from what is said, as I did Before the episode starts.

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Make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode.

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Well, hello again, dr Chotka.

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I am so happy to have you back on.

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Thank you very much.

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A joy to be with you once again to have you back on.

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Thank you very much.

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A joy to be with you once again.

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So before we get started on the pathways to healing, will you please tell everybody who hasn't heard the other episode you were in?

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Just give them a brief overview of who you are.

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Sure Well, I'm a pastor in the Christian Missionary Alliance in Canada.

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I have served as a national director of the prayer mobilizing team in my country, and I am currently now the leader and director of Spirit Equipped Ministries, with the goal of writing resources that are used to train people in spiritual disciplines.

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All right, let's get into it.

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Go ahead and share with us what are the pathways to healing.

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The first one is what I call the instant heal and in our last interview I shared a couple of stories about how there was this amazing miraculous intervention from God and it was, without question, from the hand of Jesus of Nazareth.

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Personally, in my own life, my wife was miraculously healed of muscular dystrophy and we have a medical note to verify that.

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I was miraculously healed of a paralyzed face.

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I was told that I would never speak again.

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Miraculously healed of a paralyzed face, I was told that I would never speak again.

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Anyway, the instant heal is one part of the story.

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The second is actually I didn't really think that this was supernatural before.

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I do now Natural healing, and I'll tell you why.

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When my wife had muscular dystrophy, if she ever damaged a muscle it was gone forever.

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She would never get it back.

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And the how do I say this?

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The sadness attached to that particular affliction was that you kept losing muscle tissue and you're losing your ability to do anything.

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So I knew when I married the girl I'd be pushing a wheelchair.

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But when she was miraculously healed and it was an amazing thing Right after that, if she damaged a muscle she'd grow muscle tissue, it was incredible.

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So I had gotten used to the sickness and I had assumed that if she banged her elbow, or she tripped on the sidewalk or something that meant there'd be another decline.

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And instead, there was recovery and muscle tissue growth.

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So I now believe that every human body has been gifted by God with the innate power to do natural healing, where your body just grows and becomes strong, and I don't see any conflict with saying that this is from God.

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Anyway, the next one is a pathway to a remedy, and I do believe in scripture.

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You have lots of to say that medicine is something that God has ordained.

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Now, the best case of this is the story of Hezekiah, king of Judah.

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I love the story because Isaiah the prophet goes in to see him.

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He's the 66th chapter guy.

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He had a lot to say, one of the big three prophets in the Old Testament.

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Anyway, he goes to see Hezekiah and he says to him put your house in order, you're dead.

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I mean, it's a terrible thing.

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Can you imagine getting this prophet in great regard and this?

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man walks in and says it's finished, it's over, but write your will.

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And so Hezekiah.

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It says in two places in Isaiah 38 and in 2 Kings 20, he sets his face to the wall and he doesn't even say God, heal me.

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He says God remember, remember what I've done.

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And then Isaiah, who's walking out of the court, suddenly gets another download from God.

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He comes back and he says tell Hezekiah, king of Judah, I'm adding 15 years to his life.

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And so Hezekiah hears this.

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And then he says isn't that nice?

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Prove it.

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Isaiah says well, what do you want?

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Do you want the shadow to go up 10 steps or down 10 steps?

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And he says oh, I want it to go up to 10 steps.

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And so then Isaiah cries out to the Lord and there's a nature miracle and the shadow moves back 10 steps.

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And then this is the part that's funny.

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Isaiah the prophet then looks at Hezekiah and says see, you got it.

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By the way, get yourself a fig poultice and put it on top of the boil, suck out the poison and you'll be fine.

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So he called me in the morning.

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I'll bring my bill.

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And so in the Bible, in the mind of Isaiah, in the mind of Hezekiah, in the mind of the writers of the canon of scripture, that story's there to tell us there is no conflict between medicine and miracle.

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So I see no conflict with asking the Lord to guide, to heal and being guided to a remedy.

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None, no conflict whatsoever.

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The fourth one's the hard one, and there's been much ink spilled on this.

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There's this time where you go through suffering that doesn't seem to make any sense to you, and there's this long season and you're, and believers go through this, not not just you know, not just people who are.

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You just said you went to a church that was suffering persecution.

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Yes, it was Now in the case.

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In the case of what I'm talking about right now, with a medical issue, you have the apostle.

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Actually I don't know if you know this the apostle Paul planted the church in Galatia because he got sick.

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It's the most amazing, incredible thing.

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So there's a whole school out there that says God heals automatically, and all the apostles did this all the time.

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And when you read in the New Testament, you don't see that.

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So I was working my way through the book of Galatians in my devotions and I noticed that he was ticked at the church in Galatia.

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Really mad.

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There's only one church.

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He doesn't thank god for it's that church.

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He thanks god for the kooky corinthians, and they're a mess and we're talking, they're a disaster.

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But he doesn't thank god for the galatians.

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Why?

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Well, the corinthians did not throw out the encounter with the lord.

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The galatians did.

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And so he says oh, foolish galatians, who is the witch you, before whose eyes christ was publicly proclaimed as crucified?

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He goes on like this, but in the middle of it you get two clues about what's happening in that church.

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He actually says in chapter three did he who works signs and wonders among you do so by the power of the Spirit or by the works of the law?

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So it's clear, mir, miracles happen in that church and in the planting of it.

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You know so anyway.

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Then you go to the next chapter and he's, he's whining about how badly they're treating him.

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And in chapter four he says oh, I remember how you cared for me when I was sick among you.

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You doted over me, you, you were even prepared to pluck your eyes out to help me.

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It was where is the love that you showed me when I was sick?

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And it was very clear that when the apostle planted the church, he was traveling through that area.

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He got really sick I mean we're talking sick big and he could not take care of himself.

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He fell on the kindness of strangers who then nursed him back to health and as he's getting better he starts praying for people and they get miraculously healed.

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It's only the church was planted because he got sick and sick Paul prays for sick Galatians.

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They get well by miracle while they nurse him back to health.

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It's this crazy kind of holy mystery thing.

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There's this thing where he's suffering and he's suffering illness.

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And he doesn't understand why he's suffering.

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In fact, it shows up in second Corinthians as well, with that very famous passage he says I am afflicted with a messenger of Satan to buffet me a thorn in the flesh.

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We don't know what it is.

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There's got to be like 600 explanations of that crazy thought.

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Yeah, yeah, well, clear, but what the point is?

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God speaks to him about the nature of this affliction and says to him he has to bear law and he doesn't understand why.

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And he's the apostle.

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Now, by way of comparison, also in the first chapter of that book, 2 Corinthians, he talks about experiencing clinical depression.

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He actually says I was so low I despaired even of life itself.

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He admits clinical depression.

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He doesn't cease to be the apostle while he's depressed.

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He admits that he's the.

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He calls himself Apostle Paul, the beginning letter.

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And then a few verses later he says oh man, it was bad.

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So there's, I think to be biblical.

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We have to insist that there are seasons of suffering where we don't get it.

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Yeah.

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Okay, and the last one, of course, is the miraculous crossing.

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Now I was at a funeral yesterday with one of my very, very, very finest friends.

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Lady died of a heart attack, 78, wonderful, vibrant, dynamic Christian lady.

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They were all on vacation and she dropped dead, just died.

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The proclamation of her joyous entrance into heaven was filled with faith and hope, despite the anguish and the grief of the family.

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So there's these five things.

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There's the instant heal, and I believe in that, and you see Jesus accomplishing that and you see this in the history of the church.

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Then you have this natural healing which all of us experience and appreciate and love.

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And then you have this pathway to a remedy.

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And I'll just say this to you Right now, as we speak, somebody's training for some sort of medical practice, because their kid sister died of leukemia.

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And they have this defining moment where they realize that if they'd been there with medical training they could have done something to save that life.

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So they dedicate 20, 25, 30 years to medical research and they come up with a cure.

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Well, listen, there are Christian believers who've done that.

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If the Lord has guided them to that, take the gift.

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So that's the third one.

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Fourth one suffering that we don't understand.

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And the fifth one, the miraculous crossing through the gates of death into life.

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All five of those are ordinary Christian life, and I'm saying that because I don't believe in the name and enclaim it, and I don't believe that God never heals.

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So that's the five pathways.

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Now there's an overlap with.

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There's always this question.

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I should address this because if your listeners are listening, they're going to be thinking this question Is there a relationship to satanic attack and healing?

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Is that something you want me to address?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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It probably jumps into the whole deliverance stuff anyway, so feel free.

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Okay.

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So right now, as we speak, I'm doing a translation of Mark's gospel into slang Canadian English.

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It's lots of fun, but as I'm working through Mark's gospel, I noticed a profound thing in the difference between demonization and healing.

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It's in the founder of the third chapter of Mark and it's a remarkable passage.

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So here we have verse 9, 10, and 11 of Mark, chapter 3.

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He told his disciples a boat should stand ready for them because of the crowd, so that they would not crowd him, for he had healed many, with the result that all those who had afflictions pressed around him in order to touch him.

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Now that's a beautiful picture.

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It's actually very vivid.

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It says here that thousands came.

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Now I don't know if you've ever been stuck.

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Several years ago, my wife and I had to change planes in Korea and we were going on our way to Indonesia and we got thrown into one of these rail cars, pressed, squeezed in really tight, and we couldn't speak the language.

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They couldn't speak the language.

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I got shoved into a corner it was so jammed and my poor wife some guy was standing on her leg and she was yelling at him to get his foot off her leg.

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Yeah, so I want you to get a picture.

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So these crowds, they were huge, they were just like a press of people pushing in on him, and anybody who was sick with any kind of affliction or disease did not have any issue with getting close to Jesus.

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At Nazareth they would reach forward just to touch him.

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That's a beautiful picture.

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And when you read verse 11 of Mark, chapter 3, it pictures this thing about unclean spirits.

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When the unclean spirits saw him they would fall down before him and shout you are the son of God.

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And then he would earnestly warn them to be quiet.

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But the point I'm making here is that in 98% of the narratives in the New Testament, especially in the gospels, you do not see demonization and sickness overlapping.

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You see them being separated out as separate, distinct issues.

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There's two cases where there's an overlap.

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You have the demonized boy in Mark 9, where he has what appears to be epilepsy and it gets thrown into the fire and the water and he's deaf and he is mute.

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As he casts this demon out, the boy vibrates, the unclean spirit comes out and then he takes him by the hand and raises him to life.

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That's the one clear case where you have medical affliction lined up with demonic possession, and it was probably a big one.

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The other one is in Luke 13.

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It's the story of the God worshiper in the synagogue whose back was bent, and Jesus actually says to the crowd why should this daughter of Abraham, who's here to worship God and loves God, have to be afflicted with this any longer?

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And he actually doesn't cast out a demon, he simply prays for her.

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And while he prays for her, her back straightens up.

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But he does say she was afflicted by an unclean spirit from Satan.

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So if you put brackets around those two accounts, all the other accounts that have to do with either demonization or healing are in separate and distinct categories.

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Does that make sense?

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So I have a question.

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This is probably the biggest hot topic button for the whole deliverance ministry those who are either for it or against it completely and it's one of the things that makes me have hesitancy when it comes to the deliverance ministry.

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Do you believe that Christians can be possessed by?

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demons.

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Yes, that's where I agree with you.

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Okay, and I do believe they could be attacked.

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Absolutely.

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I totally agree with that and I do believe they can give ground to the enemy and the enemy can start to take advantage.

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See that's the problem that I have with a lot of the deliverance ministries is they are making it more towards Christians who need to be delivered from their demons, rather than the great commission sharing the gospel, those who actually have demons inside of them that we should be trying to help get out.

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And they're ignoring that.

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I can tell you two stories.

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I can tell you two stories.

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All right.

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Yeah, go ahead.

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Okay, because one just happened.

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Like a week ago I was in Vietnam and there was a lady there who had had a Buddhist background and her friends had told her about Jesus.

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And it was actually an impromptu meeting.

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I was booked in to speak at a church conference and do a conference on prayer for healing, and then I had to do two sermons and the associate pastor of that church had done a church plant across the river.

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So he said, oh, by the way, I got this small group.

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Do you want to come and talk to my small group?

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And I said, oh, okay, let's go.

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So we went, and when we went there was a lady who was like one week maybe a week inside the framework of All Things Christian and she could not speak English.

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She was speaking Vietnamese and I understood her through a translator, but she was saying that these unclean spirits were attacking her in the night, telling her not to say yes to Jesus.

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And so I said do you want to say yes to Jesus?

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She said I do.

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And so I led her through a series of prayers, first of all to say yes to the claims of Christ, and then I started to lead her in what I call identity prayers.

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Where I am in Christ, the enemy cannot touch me.

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I am born of God, and while we were praying, the unclean spirit that was sitting inside of her began to get angry.

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Then it exited her as she continued to quote scripture.

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It was a small little demon, but it took us about half an hour and this was somebody who came from a totally non-Christian background into the gospel of Jesus.

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The one that's controversial is what do you do when you have somebody who walks with Jesus and has this influence of something unclean sitting on top of them?

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So my answer to that is what happened to Jesus of Nazareth right after he was filled with the Spirit and baptized by John?

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Yeah, Satan went and tried to tempt him.

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Yes, now I want you to slow this down, because this is important.

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I'm just going to give you Bible.

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I'm going to make sure that you understand this is Bible who doesn't love free?

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I know I do.

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That's why I created a free seven-day devotional for those who want to go deeper with god.

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It's a short devotional full of encouragement, guidance and impactful bible verses related to everyday struggles we all go through.

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The link is in the show notes.

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The very first thing that happens to Jeet.

00:17:37.050 --> 00:17:38.971
Now remember classic Christian faith mailing list.

00:17:38.971 --> 00:17:40.073
The link is in the show notes.

00:17:40.073 --> 00:17:58.467
Christian, who has walked with Jesus through the generations, has affirmed his classic Christianity is where I live, and so I believe that he was sinless perfection and that when John the Baptist baptized him, the heavens were split apart and the Holy Spirit descended on him, infilled him and so began the miraculous acts of power.

00:17:58.467 --> 00:18:06.131
Now, as soon as the Spirit lands on him, and he was already the Son of God and he was already God the son.

00:18:07.441 --> 00:18:12.792
So the word that is used in the Greek text to talk about Jesus casting out demons is ekbalo.

00:18:12.792 --> 00:18:21.523
It means to expel or to throw away or cast out, and every single time in Mark's gospel he commands an unclean spirit to leave.

00:18:21.523 --> 00:18:22.685
That's the word that's used.

00:18:22.685 --> 00:18:36.409
Now, the interesting thing is, when Jesus gets infilled by Holy Spirit, he is ekbaloed into the presence of the demon, he is cast out by the Holy Spirit into the presence of the principality.

00:18:36.409 --> 00:18:38.701
It's just this crazy picture.

00:18:38.701 --> 00:18:40.844
There is no question.

00:18:40.844 --> 00:18:56.055
He was perfect, he was infilled, he was launched, he was baptized, he was ready and he was in the wilderness and he was there 40 days and 40 nights and then he gets three ugly things.

00:18:56.055 --> 00:18:56.756
That happened to him.

00:18:58.207 --> 00:19:00.855
And now, any time an unclean spirit shows up, it's ugly.

00:19:00.855 --> 00:19:08.659
Can you imagine how ugly and foul and fetid the evil prince of the power of the air would be in comparison to the other small demons?

00:19:08.659 --> 00:19:12.115
He shows up and talks to Jesus and tempts him physically.

00:19:12.115 --> 00:19:13.912
Why don't you just turn those stones to bread?

00:19:13.912 --> 00:19:15.329
And Jesus doesn't do that.

00:19:15.329 --> 00:19:19.276
Now, the first temptation of the first Adam was with food.

00:19:19.276 --> 00:19:36.588
The first temptation with the second Adam was likewise with disobedience around food, and so it's clear this is the second Adam was likewise with disobedience around food, and so it's clear this is the second Adam, and it's clear he's there to take back from the devil what the devil beguiled away from our first parents.

00:19:36.588 --> 00:19:42.086
Now it's three rounds in a boxing match and Jesus has to win all three rounds.

00:19:42.086 --> 00:19:49.290
He has to defeat him physically, he has to defeat him mentally and emotionally and he has to defeat him spiritually.

00:19:49.290 --> 00:19:56.815
Now the next thing that happens is the devil picks up God the Son and puts him on the pinnacle of the temple.

00:19:56.815 --> 00:19:58.818
Now people pay for rides.

00:19:59.045 --> 00:20:01.108
Yeah, but you got to trust that the operator of that zipline is worthy of trust.

00:20:01.148 --> 00:20:06.880
Yeah, I never would, but you got to trust that the operator of that zip line is worthy of trust.

00:20:07.204 --> 00:20:14.105
Yeah, I never would, no hundreds of dollars, it'll be hundreds of bucks for the student death thing They'll go to.

00:20:14.125 --> 00:20:19.798
Niagara Falls, they'll go to some fancy place, they'll go to some Latin American place, and they'll pay money for this.

00:20:19.798 --> 00:20:36.669
Anyway, the unclean spirit is able to pick up the spirit-filled, sinless God's son and place him on the pinnacle of the temple and then he tempts him mentally, emotionally Throw yourself down so an angel can catch you while you attempt suicide.

00:20:36.669 --> 00:20:37.952
It's a thrill ride.

00:20:37.952 --> 00:20:39.277
Jesus, take the thrill ride.

00:20:39.277 --> 00:20:41.990
And he quotes scripture to disarm that.

00:20:42.531 --> 00:20:49.368
Now the part that's even more astonishing the unclean spirit picks up God, the Son, from the pinnacle of the temple.

00:20:49.368 --> 00:20:54.974
Having lost physically, and having lost mentally and emotionally, he carries him away to a mountain.

00:20:54.974 --> 00:21:03.694
There was no transporter beam, I'm a Star Trek guy there was no high-speed bullet train, there was no plane.

00:21:03.694 --> 00:21:08.208
He is transported by the prince of the power of the air to physically.

00:21:08.208 --> 00:21:09.491
It doesn't say it was a vision.

00:21:09.491 --> 00:21:11.436
Even if it was a vision, it would still be strong.

00:21:11.436 --> 00:21:15.414
But the point is he was translated physically and put on a mountaintop.

00:21:15.734 --> 00:21:18.289
And I don't know how the devil did this to Jesus.

00:21:18.289 --> 00:21:31.089
He actually was able to imprint on his thinking, or show him externally, or some combination thereof, all the kingdoms of the world and all their glory in a passing second.

00:21:31.089 --> 00:21:36.424
Now that's the devil talking to Jesus of Nazareth, who's God the Son.

00:21:36.424 --> 00:21:42.938
Now you got to know that's severe, and what he says is I'll do you a deal.

00:21:42.938 --> 00:21:44.606
Oh, by the way, I own these kingdoms.

00:21:44.606 --> 00:21:45.569
They were given to me.

00:21:45.569 --> 00:21:48.449
Well, it was the first Adam who gave it to him, the first.

00:21:48.449 --> 00:21:50.869
I don't know if you think Adam or Eve was dumber.

00:21:50.869 --> 00:21:52.034
I think it was dumb and dumber.

00:21:53.508 --> 00:21:56.829
Yeah, they both had their parts to play on that one yeah.

00:22:00.711 --> 00:22:04.948
At some point while you're watching, you should have said hey, let's not do that, or?

00:22:04.968 --> 00:22:06.451
While you're watching, you should have said, hey, let's not do that.

00:22:06.451 --> 00:22:07.773
Or you should have said, get out of the way here.

00:22:07.773 --> 00:22:08.516
What are you doing?

00:22:08.516 --> 00:22:10.346
Talking to a snake, I know.

00:22:14.945 --> 00:22:16.713
So many ways that could have gone better.

00:22:16.794 --> 00:22:25.082
The point was Jesus of Nazareth is actually on the mountain, speaking to the one who beguiled our first parents to hand him the kingdoms of the world to him.

00:22:25.082 --> 00:22:29.753
And the devil is saying I'll give him to you, you just have to worship me.

00:22:29.753 --> 00:22:33.690
And Jesus says no, no, you should worship the Lord, your God only.

00:22:33.690 --> 00:22:36.257
And so he defeats the unclean spirit.

00:22:36.257 --> 00:22:37.446
Then the angels carry him back.

00:22:37.787 --> 00:22:44.016
Now the point I'm making is that was temptation to a sinless, perfect, incarnated God, the Son.

00:22:44.016 --> 00:22:46.519
And so why did he not just tell him to leave?

00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:47.246
I'll tell you why.

00:22:47.246 --> 00:23:02.315
He was required to do that and the Holy Spirit carried him there to do that because his mission was to destroy the works of the devil, and the first thing you have to do when you're cutting down that tree is ax the root, and he has to defeat him physically.

00:23:02.675 --> 00:23:09.011
Just like our first parents failed, jesus succeeded, but because of the first failure, all of us was corrupt and inside human skin.

00:23:09.011 --> 00:23:12.446
He had to defeat him mentally and emotionally that's the realm of the soul.

00:23:12.446 --> 00:23:15.645
And then he had to defeat him spiritually that's the realm of the spirit.

00:23:15.645 --> 00:23:26.295
And it's not until he passes through sharp temptation, prayer, 40 days of focus and severe testing that involves every aspect of what it means to be human.

00:23:26.295 --> 00:23:35.251
Every part of his body was tempted like this, that he is able to defeat the unclean spirit in prayer, and then he starts casting out demons.

00:23:35.251 --> 00:23:40.749
Now, if that's true for God, the son, can the unclean spirit attack a born again believer?

00:23:40.769 --> 00:23:42.031
Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:42.413 --> 00:23:45.327
Now here's the here's how I describe this, and I do this from the book of Ephesians.

00:23:45.327 --> 00:23:48.916
I did my master's work in Ephesians under a guy named Dr Gordon Fee.

00:23:48.916 --> 00:23:56.275
I was studying the spirit in Ephesians and I discovered that the word walk indicates two predestinations.

00:23:56.275 --> 00:24:06.457
You walk according to the prince of the power of the air, or you walk according to the risen Lord, and there's a predestination assigned to those in the first Adam and the unclean spirit sits on that.

00:24:06.457 --> 00:24:14.492
And there's a predestination assigned to the second Adam and the Holy Spirit sits on that and the believer lives between the two predestinations.

00:24:14.492 --> 00:24:15.556
There's only two in the Bible.

00:24:15.556 --> 00:24:29.731
There's not seven billion, there's two, and you freely choose the first Adam or you freely choose the second Adam, and when you choose that, you enter into what has been predestined for the body of Jesus.

00:24:29.731 --> 00:24:33.150
It shows up in verse 10 of chapter two, the very famous passage by grace you have been saved through faith.

00:24:33.150 --> 00:24:34.674
That not of works, lest anyone should boast it.

00:24:34.674 --> 00:24:47.057
You come to verse 10, it says for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, for good works which have been prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

00:24:47.057 --> 00:24:54.954
That's the same word that's used to describe they were dead in their trespasses and sins in which they walked according to the prince of the power of the air.

00:24:54.954 --> 00:24:58.595
And so 10 verses apart, you have these two walks.

00:24:58.595 --> 00:25:00.873
One is death walker and the other is life walker.

00:25:00.873 --> 00:25:03.794
And if you are in the first Adam, you're a death walker.

00:25:03.794 --> 00:25:06.471
If you're in the second Adam, you're a life walker.

00:25:06.471 --> 00:25:11.426
And in both cases the predestining activity happens by the power of whatever spirit is overseeing that.

00:25:11.788 --> 00:25:15.497
Now, if you look at the material in Ephesians, it's a born-again church.

00:25:15.497 --> 00:25:24.769
The apostle Paul is writing to a born-again church and he's got these two predestinations that are named throughout the book, talking about the exaltation of Jesus over the powers.

00:25:24.769 --> 00:25:32.608
It's a beautiful book about spiritual warfare, and what he says is if you give the devil room to maneuver, he will Okay.

00:25:32.608 --> 00:25:36.787
So if you can picture these two spheres, they're quite separate and distinct from each other.

00:25:36.787 --> 00:25:38.673
So if you're in Christ, you're in Christ.

00:25:38.673 --> 00:25:40.165
If you're in the devil, you're in the devil.

00:25:40.165 --> 00:25:42.028
Oh, but some Christians like their sin.

00:25:42.808 --> 00:25:43.670
Did you know that?

00:25:43.871 --> 00:25:59.890
yeah, yeah, yeah and so what happens is god's intention, for our pure walk gets tainted by our love of the thing we shouldn't attest, and it creates a doorway of opportunity for the enemy to sit on you.

00:25:59.890 --> 00:26:03.116
Okay, so this is not possession, oppression.

00:26:03.116 --> 00:26:04.205
We'll call it what you will.

00:26:04.205 --> 00:26:07.406
Actually, the word word oppression does not exist in the New Testament.

00:26:07.406 --> 00:26:10.173
The word that exists in the New Testament is demonization.

00:26:10.173 --> 00:26:15.511
So what I can say is full-on demonization happens among the unsaved.

00:26:15.792 --> 00:26:18.739
Yeah, and that would be considered like possession.

00:26:19.085 --> 00:26:20.311
Yeah, that would be fair.

00:26:20.311 --> 00:26:24.730
Actually, you know I don't know if you know this the New Testament talks about how God wants to possess us.

00:26:24.730 --> 00:26:27.487
We are his treasured possession.

00:26:27.487 --> 00:26:30.316
Now, the difference between satanic power and God power.

00:26:30.316 --> 00:26:35.691
Jesus invites us to participate in his power and calls us to sacrifice.

00:26:35.691 --> 00:26:41.093
The unclean spirit promises us life and gives us death and serves as a leech Both of us.

00:26:41.093 --> 00:26:47.173
Actually, the unclean spirit's desire to possess us is because it wants what God has when we give it to him.

00:26:47.173 --> 00:26:49.593
The unclean spirit does it by force.

00:26:49.593 --> 00:26:51.750
The Holy Spirit does it by invitation.

00:26:51.750 --> 00:26:52.693
That's the difference.

00:26:52.693 --> 00:26:55.173
Unclean power manipulates in order to control.

00:26:55.173 --> 00:26:57.993
Holy Spirit power invites to sacrifice and gives life.

00:26:57.993 --> 00:27:00.131
Profound difference between the two.

00:27:00.291 --> 00:27:00.512
Yeah.

00:27:00.744 --> 00:27:09.711
But I will tell you this it is possible for a person who doesn't know how to take their stand against the powers of darkness to allow the enemy opportunity.

00:27:09.711 --> 00:27:13.094
So there's one story that I tell in my new coming book.

00:27:13.094 --> 00:27:18.117
There was a lady in my church in Toronto area and she was a young girl when I was there.

00:27:18.117 --> 00:27:24.722
Then her parents moved to a different location and in the course of time COVID happened and people wanted church but they couldn't go to church.

00:27:24.722 --> 00:27:25.805
I mean, that's what happened up here.

00:27:26.144 --> 00:27:28.368
Yeah, yeah, it kind of happened here too.

00:27:28.650 --> 00:27:32.015
Yeah, in Canada we weren't allowed 10 people in a room at any building.

00:27:32.015 --> 00:27:35.666
It didn't matter if it was a university or a drugstore or anything, you weren't allowed.

00:27:35.666 --> 00:27:37.833
So we're all stuck in our bubbles, you know.

00:27:37.833 --> 00:27:42.288
And I started offering Zoom courses and we had worship service once a week on Zoom.

00:27:42.288 --> 00:27:42.828
That's what I did.

00:27:42.828 --> 00:27:46.734
So the family that I knew from back in the day connected with us again.

00:27:47.715 --> 00:27:49.038
The girl had some medical issues.

00:27:49.038 --> 00:27:58.935
She went to Guatemala and while she was down there she was doing service work under one of the parachurch ministries and got this terrible affliction in her belly, in her gut, just all kinds of trouble.

00:27:58.935 --> 00:28:04.834
So the go-to thing in the brain of everybody who was treating her was this has got to be some sort of a tropical bug.

00:28:04.834 --> 00:28:08.088
So she came back to the Metro Toronto area to be with her family.

00:28:08.088 --> 00:28:10.433
They examined her for everything.

00:28:10.433 --> 00:28:17.597
They gave her a course of whatever the treatment would happen to be for a broad range of tropical afflictions.

00:28:17.597 --> 00:28:21.152
She still was suffering with this thing and she's born again.

00:28:21.152 --> 00:28:22.194
She loves Jesus.

00:28:22.214 --> 00:28:30.973
So I'm serving at this point now in Northern Alberta, just outside the city of Edmonton, and she winds up going to one of the hospitals in Edmonton.

00:28:30.973 --> 00:28:33.169
She comes to see us for prayer around this affliction.

00:28:33.169 --> 00:28:35.115
We pray and there's no change.

00:28:35.115 --> 00:28:36.339
She stays afflicted.

00:28:36.339 --> 00:28:38.990
Anyway, she's got this chronic pain issue.

00:28:38.990 --> 00:28:48.178
It's going on for a long time and when she gives birth to her first child and she's about to give birth to her second and she gets this terrible increase in pain.

00:28:48.178 --> 00:28:55.534
It's chronic before that and now it's constant and it's awful, it's ugly Child comes early because of all the pain she was in.

00:28:56.125 --> 00:28:58.053
So anyway, her mom calls me.

00:28:58.053 --> 00:29:00.330
She said, pastor David, we got to pray.

00:29:00.330 --> 00:29:01.255
This is terrible.

00:29:01.255 --> 00:29:04.955
We're using all of our resources every way we possibly can.

00:29:04.955 --> 00:29:15.017
There was a team of six people who were on three continents and we all decided that we needed to fast and pray because we just were not seeing any result with this.

00:29:15.017 --> 00:29:36.654
We're talking years here and as we're praying, I had a conviction come to me that there had been someone curse her and some sort of a medicine shaman guy down there in Guatemala back in the day, and so, as we're talking, I decided that I would test this and I put it before the Lord, and the way that I understand how God speaks is primarily nonverbal.

00:29:37.045 --> 00:29:43.489
If there is an increase in his presence and you feel an increase of peace and righteousness and joy and hope and those things.

00:29:43.489 --> 00:29:49.810
Well, they grow inside of you and there's a fiery assurance inside of you as you are processing this issue.

00:29:49.810 --> 00:29:51.977
I take that to be the voice of Jesus.

00:29:51.977 --> 00:29:54.913
So when the presence grows, say yes to that.

00:29:54.913 --> 00:29:57.272
When the presence diminishes, put your guard up.

00:29:57.272 --> 00:29:59.351
If the presence is jarred, something's wrong.

00:29:59.351 --> 00:30:02.835
So that's the go-to rule of thumb.

00:30:02.835 --> 00:30:07.472
Anyway, we're praying Every time and we're talking about a two-day fast.

00:30:08.134 --> 00:30:19.236
Every time I am walking and praying and thinking of this young lady, I have this profound sense that there was some sort of a satanic assignment against her, a curse put on her.

00:30:19.236 --> 00:30:21.647
She didn't know how to stand against that.

00:30:21.647 --> 00:30:36.000
We gathered and we decided that we would meet a half an hour in advance of meeting with the girl and I said to the group I wonder if it might be possible that there was some sort of a curse from some sort of an Indian witch doctor down in Guatemala.

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:42.285
And as soon as I said it, everybody's spirit lit up, like all of us sensed the nearness.

00:30:42.285 --> 00:30:46.175
Now we're talking about very conservative, bible thumping Christians.

00:30:46.175 --> 00:30:52.808
All of us believe in the inerrancy of scripture and we all hold to a high view of Jesus and the resurrection and the scripture and so on.

00:30:52.808 --> 00:30:55.096
As we're praying, this sense comes on all of us.

00:30:55.525 --> 00:31:00.455
I said I believe that I am to break the curse, and they said let's do it.

00:31:00.455 --> 00:31:01.746
So we got her in the call.

00:31:01.746 --> 00:31:08.027
I said to her I do believe that this began when you had some sort of an encounter with somebody who cursed you.

00:31:08.027 --> 00:31:11.394
Would you allow me to take authority against that curse?

00:31:11.394 --> 00:31:14.510
She said yes and we started to do this.

00:31:14.510 --> 00:31:20.449
And the second I said in the name of Jesus, I break off any satanic assignment against this child of God.

00:31:20.449 --> 00:31:25.048
I declare that Jesus' blood is more powerful than the powers of darkness, et cetera, et cetera.

00:31:25.048 --> 00:31:31.138
She immediately felt a release in her body and the pain diminished 60% in two minutes.

00:31:31.138 --> 00:31:37.057
And over the course of the next 10 days she got a little more strong, a little more strong, a little more strong.

00:31:37.057 --> 00:31:47.912
She had to come off some heavy duty meds so that she was withdrawing from some of the medications that she had taken that were very strong, some high end pain meds, and so there was the natural withdrawal stuff.

00:31:47.932 --> 00:31:48.374
that happened.

00:31:48.433 --> 00:31:48.614
Yeah.

00:31:49.025 --> 00:31:51.954
But from that point forward all pain in her body vanished.

00:31:51.954 --> 00:31:59.277
So now this is a born-again girl, and the enemy tried to attack her and she didn't know how to stand her ground.

00:31:59.277 --> 00:32:04.630
So I do believe that in Jesus you can stop any attack from the powers of darkness.

00:32:04.950 --> 00:32:05.250
Amen.

00:32:05.309 --> 00:32:09.453
But you need to know that you can, and you need to know that you can take authority.

00:32:09.453 --> 00:32:11.836
And if you don't know, the enemy will take advantage.

00:32:11.836 --> 00:32:13.258
I'll tell you one more story.

00:32:13.258 --> 00:32:17.582
When I proposed to my girl, she was delightfully Christian.

00:32:17.582 --> 00:32:23.113
Every part of her family was delightfully Christian, and she says yes to me.

00:32:23.253 --> 00:32:39.096
In March, and the next night, as she was in bed, an enormous unclean spirit materialized to her, twice the size of a gorilla, with a gravelly voice, looked at her, shook her bed, lifted the sheets off the bed and said I have been assigned to destroy your marriage.

00:32:39.096 --> 00:32:40.390
You will not marry that man.

00:32:40.390 --> 00:32:42.761
And she was terrified, didn't know what to do.

00:32:42.761 --> 00:32:44.086
She'd never seen anything like this.

00:32:44.086 --> 00:32:47.698
And then she cried out to Jesus and said oh Lord, help me.

00:32:47.698 --> 00:32:48.339
Oh Lord, help me.

00:32:48.339 --> 00:32:49.864
And the unclean spirit just laughed at her.

00:32:49.864 --> 00:32:52.832
Same thing happens the next night and the next night after that.

00:32:52.832 --> 00:32:55.606
I don't know how many times it happened until finally she told me.

00:32:55.946 --> 00:32:56.428
I said do you mean?

00:32:56.428 --> 00:32:58.109
An unclean spirit materialized in the room.

00:32:58.109 --> 00:32:58.830
She said yeah.

00:32:58.830 --> 00:33:00.232
I said would you tell it to leave?

00:33:00.232 --> 00:33:01.054
She said what?

00:33:01.054 --> 00:33:02.214
Did you tell it to leave?

00:33:02.214 --> 00:33:03.316
I said well, no.

00:33:03.316 --> 00:33:04.718
I asked Jesus to get rid of it.

00:33:04.718 --> 00:33:05.439
I said he can't.

00:33:05.439 --> 00:33:07.361
I said what she said, what I said.

00:33:07.361 --> 00:33:08.863
Well, listen, he always has to.

00:33:08.863 --> 00:33:14.115
The reason he became a human is because he had to do that inside human skin.

00:33:14.115 --> 00:33:18.547
And now he assigns that authority to humans and he doesn't do it from heaven.

00:33:18.547 --> 00:33:24.555
He infills us with his spirit so that you have the authority to be able to take authority against the unclean powers.

00:33:24.555 --> 00:33:25.997
You have to tell it to leave.

00:33:25.997 --> 00:33:27.539
Jesus didn't think any demon away.

00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:28.381
He commanded them to go.

00:33:28.381 --> 00:33:30.251
She said what do I say?

00:33:31.086 --> 00:33:31.930
I said how about this?

00:33:32.244 --> 00:33:33.371
In the name of Jesus go.

00:33:33.371 --> 00:33:37.855
The next night, this gorilla-like thing appeared in the room and it was threatening her.

00:33:37.855 --> 00:33:42.912
It actually levitated the sheets and shook the bed and she said in the name of Jesus, I command you to stop.

00:33:42.912 --> 00:33:44.733
And it would look like shocked and stop.

00:33:44.733 --> 00:33:57.851
And then she repeated four or five or six times that it had to leave because of the blood of Jesus, the name of Jesus, and it gradually withdrew and then it disappeared, never to return again.

00:33:57.871 --> 00:33:59.093
So I believe that we are in spiritual warfare.

00:33:59.093 --> 00:34:03.346
In fact, I believe that Satan will attack believers.

00:34:03.346 --> 00:34:15.148
I know Satan attacked God, the Son, when he was sinless and perfect and actually had significant power over him, until he defeated him physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

00:34:15.148 --> 00:34:21.353
I know from the scripture Jesus spent most of his time praying for the sick, casting out demons or mentoring disciples.

00:34:21.353 --> 00:34:22.885
Those were the three things he did.

00:34:22.885 --> 00:34:26.675
When he calls the 12 to himself, he trains them.

00:34:26.675 --> 00:34:29.934
It's very interesting to look at the language of what he trained them to do.

00:34:29.934 --> 00:34:32.773
He trained them to be with him, which is prayer.

00:34:32.773 --> 00:34:41.393
He trained them to pray for the sick that they might get better, and he trained them to cast out demons and then, when he sent them out they did.

00:34:41.985 --> 00:34:42.125
Now.

00:34:42.125 --> 00:34:45.335
I just cast out two demons in the last two weeks.

00:34:45.335 --> 00:34:47.371
I was not looking for the opportunity.

00:34:47.371 --> 00:34:48.273
Thank you very much.

00:34:48.273 --> 00:34:51.012
So here's what I want to say to you.

00:34:51.012 --> 00:35:07.996
Christian cannot be possessed, but a Christian can give the enemy as much permission as the enemy wants to take, and Christians can actually play with their sin issues until the sin issue dominates and the unclean spirit sits on the sin issue and starts to take advantage.

00:35:07.996 --> 00:35:16.027
A Christian can be cursed unless they stand their ground to reject the curse, and the power of the Lord is available for believers to stand in victory.

00:35:16.027 --> 00:35:16.989
Does that make sense to you?

00:35:17.251 --> 00:35:18.295
Yeah, yeah, it does.

00:35:19.025 --> 00:35:25.246
I do believe in it and I live in it and I keep getting called out because people have discovered that I do this.

00:35:25.586 --> 00:35:34.373
So just a few days ago there was someone from Hong Kong and wanted deliverance from this unclean thing, and in her case she couldn't read the Bible.

00:35:34.373 --> 00:35:42.896
Her head would turn away and if she was ever sitting in a church she was unable to hear whatever was preached.

00:35:42.896 --> 00:35:48.670
She couldn't do that, and if she heard people worshiping about the blood or the presence she would become agitated.

00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:53.708
And so I wound up sitting with this lady and it was a big principality in this case a big one.

00:35:53.708 --> 00:35:55.032
It took several hours.

00:35:55.032 --> 00:36:04.548
Whenever I talked about the blood of Jesus, her physical body would shake and it was like an unnatural motion and in the end the unclean spirit came out.

00:36:04.548 --> 00:36:06.596
But it was a tedious thing.

00:36:07.025 --> 00:36:09.773
The strongest scripture for this is found in the book of Colossians.

00:36:09.773 --> 00:36:11.257
It's Colossians 2.15.

00:36:11.257 --> 00:36:15.597
If you're ever dealing with an unclean spirit, they hate this scripture.

00:36:15.597 --> 00:36:20.793
Scripture weakens the power of the unclean spirit.

00:36:20.793 --> 00:36:28.255
Colossians 2.15 talks about Jesus' victory and complete embarrassment of the demonic powers.

00:36:28.255 --> 00:36:38.411
It says this when he disarmed the rulers and the authorities, he made a public display of them having triumphed over them through the cross.

00:36:38.793 --> 00:36:44.152
Now, whenever you're dealing with, if you wonder if somebody's got a demonic influence, read that scripture.

00:36:44.152 --> 00:36:46.498
If they're in Christ, they will rejoice.

00:36:46.498 --> 00:36:48.230
If there's an unclean spirit.

00:36:48.230 --> 00:36:53.376
They'll get agitated and then you can then command the unclean spirit to shut up and leave.

00:36:53.376 --> 00:36:59.065
But that's the text that I use when I'm dealing with someone who is afflicted with an unclean presence.

00:36:59.065 --> 00:37:04.706
I have a team read the scripture over and over and over again until the unclean spirit hears.

00:37:04.706 --> 00:37:06.833
Number one Jesus is the victor.

00:37:06.833 --> 00:37:08.791
Number two they've been stripped naked.

00:37:08.791 --> 00:37:13.512
Number three there's a triumphal procession with Christ at the head and that means they're doomed.

00:37:13.512 --> 00:37:16.766
Number four the cross of Jesus eliminates their authority.

00:37:16.766 --> 00:37:28.864
And when you say that repeatedly, the unclean spirit will finally acknowledge the power of the Lord and then loosens its grip and comes out the power of the Lord and then loosens its grip and comes out.

00:37:32.925 --> 00:37:37.432
It's a lot to process and I'm noticing the way you do it compared to how the modern deliverance ministry has been working profoundly different.

00:37:37.432 --> 00:37:41.626
You are pointing to Christ, you're not seeking it out.

00:37:41.626 --> 00:37:52.197
God's bringing the opportunities to you, which is a big thing, because they'll do big events and charge and say, hey, come here and get delivered from your demons.

00:37:52.197 --> 00:38:00.713
And they don't remind people that we are sinful creatures, that we have a sinful nature and we have these desires.

00:38:00.713 --> 00:38:08.166
And, like you said, christians can give authority to demons to hang out with them and to eventually rule over them.

00:38:08.166 --> 00:38:12.791
And that is a problem because the modern deliverance ministry doesn't say that.

00:38:12.791 --> 00:38:16.411
They just say, oh, you have a demon of this or you have a demon of that.

00:38:16.411 --> 00:38:26.172
No, you have a sinful nature that is nurturing that and because of that, you have allowed this demon to hang out with you and be your friend.

00:38:26.172 --> 00:38:27.061
Quote unquote.

00:38:27.342 --> 00:38:29.250
Actually, that's a very apt description of what you just said.

00:38:29.250 --> 00:38:37.605
So I was doing an event in a church two years ago and I got up and I started to preach and there were 220 people in that church.

00:38:37.605 --> 00:38:41.860
120 of them stayed for prayer.

00:38:41.860 --> 00:38:42.983
We're talking.

00:38:42.983 --> 00:38:51.264
We had a team of four or five people to pray, so it was a very long afternoon Working our way through that crowd.

00:38:51.264 --> 00:39:04.583
Anyway, I came to the second last person there and it was someone from the Philippines and there was a lady there who had worked in the Philippines and she was interceding with this man and he said well, pastor, I really would like it if you would pray for me.

00:39:04.583 --> 00:39:15.606
I said, oh, okay, and I touched him and he screamed and he hit the ground, just started to rise on the ground and the pastor of the church said what'd?

00:39:15.646 --> 00:39:15.907
you do.

00:39:15.907 --> 00:39:25.869
Anyway, as it turned out, I was given a series of downloads in real time and commanded the unclean spirit to stop manifesting, to stop showing off, and his body stopped.

00:39:25.869 --> 00:39:28.204
And I said now the unclean spirit, you're not allowed to speak.

00:39:28.204 --> 00:39:29.045
I'm going to talk to the man.

00:39:29.045 --> 00:39:32.164
Did you have a ghost in your house in the philippines?

00:39:32.164 --> 00:39:33.126
Did you have a poltergeist?

00:39:33.126 --> 00:39:34.088
He said I did.

00:39:34.088 --> 00:39:34.809
Did you?

00:39:34.809 --> 00:39:38.387
Did it say to you it would give you blessing if you allowed it to stay in its house?

00:39:38.387 --> 00:39:39.489
He said it did.

00:39:39.489 --> 00:39:41.934
Did you say to it you could stay in my house?

00:39:41.934 --> 00:39:42.958
He said I did.

00:39:42.958 --> 00:39:47.068
Then, when you moved to Canada, did it ask to come inside of you so it could come with you?

00:39:47.068 --> 00:39:48.170
He said I did.00:39:48.170 --> 00:39:50.461


Did you give it permission to go inside you?00:39:50.461 --> 00:39:51.342


He said I did.00:39:51.583 --> 00:39:53.286


I said has this made trouble in your marriage?00:39:53.286 --> 00:39:54.929


He said my marriage is terrible.00:39:54.929 --> 00:39:58.494


I said you have to renounce your association with this unclean thing.00:39:58.494 --> 00:39:59.536


Would you do that?00:39:59.536 --> 00:40:01.746


He said it's blessed me.00:40:01.746 --> 00:40:03.347


I said it's wrecking your marriage.00:40:03.347 --> 00:40:06.369


Would you renounce this to save your marriage?00:40:06.369 --> 00:40:14.389


And he paused and he said yes, and so I led him in a prayer of renunciation and I broke the association between his house.00:40:14.389 --> 00:40:17.681


It was a long time standing thing, it'd be years we're talking about.00:40:18.322 --> 00:40:21.429


And then I commanded the unclean spirit to loose his hold on him and go.00:40:21.429 --> 00:40:24.373


Then, of course, the pastor took me for lunch.00:40:24.373 --> 00:40:29.442


He went no one's going to want to do this, this is new to him.00:40:29.442 --> 00:40:36.474


I said did you notice that when I was given these downloads, I wasn't trying to be focused on anything other than just getting this band?00:40:36.474 --> 00:40:36.614


Well?00:40:36.614 --> 00:40:38.820


And he said, yes, I did.00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:44.244


I said well, sometimes you get these downloads and here's what happens the idea pops in your brain, the presence gets big, and then you test it.00:40:44.244 --> 00:40:46.853


You don't say thus, saith the Lord, you test it.00:40:46.853 --> 00:40:55.429


And so you put it in front of the person and you command the unclean spirit to silence and then you let the person who is struggling with this thing have voice.00:40:55.429 --> 00:41:03.460


So if this demon is strong, that's hard.00:41:03.460 --> 00:41:05.186


If the demon's not strong or it doesn't have a strong grip, it's not hard.00:41:05.186 --> 00:41:12.809


But regardless of that, in the end I had him break his association with that unclean spirit and then, after he did that, it could no longer have any legal authority to stay and then I commanded it to leave and it did so.00:41:12.809 --> 00:41:13.460


There you go.00:41:13.460 --> 00:41:19.713


So it's possible, for the phrase you used give him the permission to hang around with him is exactly what happened to that guy.00:41:19.952 --> 00:41:20.739


Yeah, yeah.00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:30.365


And so, yeah, that's truth, yeah it's definitely opened my eyes to a different side of the deliverance ministry, because I'd been very closed off to it.00:41:30.365 --> 00:41:41.956


If I'm being honest, the whole idea it just at least the modern version has had sullied me on the whole idea of what it can actually be.00:41:41.956 --> 00:41:56.523


And as I'm going through this journey of understanding why I believe what I believe, I'm learning a whole bunch of new things about who God is, how he works, how he can work if we allow Him to, if we listen to Him.00:41:56.523 --> 00:42:08.143


I'm just learning so many new things that I either grew up being told this isn't right, this is wrong, whatever, and I'm realizing that I don't know God as much as I thought I did.00:42:08.264 --> 00:42:11.112


Shocker there, I mean how many of us are in that boat.00:42:11.112 --> 00:42:13.159


You have to be the man through the screen and shake your head.00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:29.652


Yeah, I know, and I'm understanding that he's more powerful than I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt, for he's more capable of doing things than I have ever thought he is.00:42:29.652 --> 00:42:40.028


And the way you are going about helping deliver people who are believers, who may think they're believers, who aren't believers all of that is really opening my eyes to that.00:42:40.028 --> 00:42:57.833


This is something that is necessary, and there's probably so many people in our countries alone, let alone other countries where you've experienced this, that could use this kind of help in the actual way, not the way that the modern is doing it.00:42:57.833 --> 00:43:00.079


Yeah, I got saved by an unclean spirit being cast out of the universe.00:43:00.139 --> 00:43:00.400


Yeah, and.00:43:00.601 --> 00:43:02.387


I know somebody else who has too.00:43:03.500 --> 00:43:09.983


That's here in Canada, Niagara Falls area, right so right across the border from the US, right yeah yeah, so I mean this is definitely.00:43:10.945 --> 00:43:20.806


I wish that the false features of this would go away, but it can't, so the ones who are doing it right, have to be louder.00:43:20.827 --> 00:43:21.148


Do you know what?00:43:21.148 --> 00:43:25.389


Philippians, chapter one Paul thanks God for the false guys freaking Christ out of envy.00:43:25.389 --> 00:43:27.440


He's in prison, he can't do anything and he thanks God for that.00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:29.445


That's the attitude we have to have.00:43:29.445 --> 00:43:31.391


I can't change somebody else's stupidity.00:43:31.391 --> 00:43:34.449


All that I can do is be the true deal, not the counterfeit.00:43:34.449 --> 00:43:35.922


Yeah, I love that.00:43:35.922 --> 00:43:38.208


Every now and then I've discovered that I've made some.00:43:38.208 --> 00:43:42.739


I have some erroneous thought or some wrong pattern or some sinful behavior that I have to get rid of.00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:46.469


But that's different from having an embrace of something that's ugly.00:43:46.750 --> 00:43:46.931


Yeah.00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:49.125


That's discovering that you have not yet learned.00:43:49.125 --> 00:43:51.030


So, yeah, there's.00:43:51.219 --> 00:44:08.572


there's tremendous goodness and power in the grace of God to I just want to say this so, being and the grace of God, I just want to say this being a group of people who say that God doesn't do that anymore, and there's a whole section of Christians in the United States in particular that says God doesn't do that anymore.00:44:08.572 --> 00:44:12.985


About half the evangelical Christians in the States are in that camp.00:44:12.985 --> 00:44:23.295


It's called cessationism, but the bottom line is my dad got saved when Jesus appeared to him, and they would tell me that that was an unclean visitation and my dad's not really saved.00:44:23.295 --> 00:44:24.278


No, no, no, no, no.00:44:24.278 --> 00:44:25.822


Jesus told him his sins were forgiven.00:44:25.822 --> 00:44:28.190


He looked him in the eye and it was waves of love.00:44:28.190 --> 00:44:36.204


I got saved by having an unclean spirit cast out of me, and so you can't tell me that that's not for now, but that's just experience.00:44:39.780 --> 00:44:40.623


God's going to do what God's going to do.00:44:40.623 --> 00:44:41.385


That is exactly what I'm realizing.00:44:41.405 --> 00:44:48.264


Well, the bottom line is just this Cessationism says that God can't, and the embrace of the scripture says that God always does.00:44:48.264 --> 00:44:56.202


And the teaching of cessationism is that all of those magnificent acts of power, all of those deliverances, all those signs and wonders stop with the 12.00:44:56.202 --> 00:44:58.726


That when the 12 died, that was the end of it.00:44:58.726 --> 00:44:59.567


The canon was formed.00:44:59.567 --> 00:45:04.414


Now we have the Bible, but in the canon itself we have a book called James.00:45:04.414 --> 00:45:06.503


James was the half-brother of Jesus.00:45:06.503 --> 00:45:13.806


He was, until the resurrection, an antagonist Wanted to arrest him because he thought his brother belonged in a loony bin.00:45:13.806 --> 00:45:17.123


And so you have this antagonism in James.00:45:17.123 --> 00:45:20.052


So he was not one of the original 12.00:45:20.052 --> 00:45:22.347


Book of Galatians calls him an apostle.00:45:22.347 --> 00:45:26.251


Paul says I saw none of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.00:45:26.251 --> 00:45:29.807


That means there weren't just 12 and 13.00:45:29.807 --> 00:45:32.409


Paul did not become the 12th and 13th.00:45:32.409 --> 00:45:34.027


Barnabas was called an apostle.00:45:34.027 --> 00:45:35.686


Paul was called an apostle.00:45:35.686 --> 00:45:39.090


Silas and Timothy were called apostles, so James was called an apostle.00:45:39.090 --> 00:45:40.110


Silas and Timothy were called apostles, so James was called an apostle.00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:45.851


The book of James was written by someone who was not part of the original 12.00:45:45.851 --> 00:45:49.344


It was sanctioned by the great church as scripture.00:45:49.344 --> 00:46:04.338


And James tells people who are elders in the church, who are distinctly not involved with the ministry of Jesus at all and were tutored and mentored by James himself, that they should engage in prayer for healing and expect miraculous access.00:46:04.338 --> 00:46:08.250


That means the New Testament says cessationism is wrong.00:46:08.250 --> 00:46:14.023


The New Testament itself, the last books of the Bible were the 1, 2, 3, john and Revelation books.00:46:14.023 --> 00:46:23.786


John, the son of Zebedee, was in his nineties and he says anyone who says he abides in Jesus must walk as he walked.00:46:23.786 --> 00:46:36.085


That means John in his nineties was embracing the notion that there could be miraculous acts of power through those who walk with Jesus and he said it at the end of the canon as the last apostle.00:46:36.085 --> 00:46:51.692


So I am now quite convinced utterly that the Bible teaches cessationism is wrong and we must accept that these gifts of the Spirit are for today and we must accept but I'm not one of them prosperity gospel guys.00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:53.945


Good good.00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:07.664


I'd like to pray for your listeners, if I could so.00:47:07.664 --> 00:47:18.144


Heavenly Father, I want to thank you for all the people who listen to Emma's broadcast, and right now there are people who are asking questions about whether they have been infected with an unclean spirit or whether they are in one of those categories for healing.00:47:18.144 --> 00:47:20.563


Jesus, here's what I know about who you are.00:47:20.563 --> 00:47:22.807


You are perfect and you are pure love.00:47:22.807 --> 00:47:25.981


Anyone who cries out to you can have deliverance.00:47:25.981 --> 00:47:33.684


Anyone who cries out to you can be guided to a pathway, to a remedy, or to an instant heal, or to this place of understanding.00:47:33.684 --> 00:47:35.148


They're in the place of holy mystery.00:47:35.148 --> 00:47:44.916


Would you speak to all the listeners by your beautiful presence to guide them to whatever pathway they need to become whole and complete in Christ?00:47:44.916 --> 00:47:57.853


Let everyone who's listening to this broadcast understand and know that God's desire to make them well is bigger and stronger and deeper and higher and more rich than even their deepest imagining.00:47:57.853 --> 00:48:00.628


Bless them and lead them in Jesus' name.00:48:00.829 --> 00:48:03.047


Amen, perfect way to end this episode.00:48:03.047 --> 00:48:06.530


Thank you again, dr David, for coming on and having this chat with me.00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:08.447


It's an absolute delight and joy.