Do the Sign Gifts Still Exist?

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What are spiritual gifts and who are they for?

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Are all of them still in effect today or have some disappeared?

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All these questions will be answered today on my episode with Chad Wagner, the pastor of Excelsior Springs Church in Missouri.

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His perspective on the subject of spiritual gifts will either challenge or anger you, but it's still a position worth exploring.

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So before you send in any hate mail, hear him out and do some digging on your own, and then send your message with the link in the show notes to share your opinions.

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Let's get to it Before the episode starts.

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Make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode.

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Hello Chad, thank you for coming on the show today.

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I'm very excited to have you on so we can talk about today.

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From Pennsylvania and then I moved to Cincinnati, ohio, in my 20s and I was a member of a church there.

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That's where I was originally baptized and then I was trained for the ministry under my pastor there.

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In 2013, I was ordained and I was sent to Minneapolis and I pastored a church up there for five years and I moved down here to Excelsior Springs, missouri, which is a suburb of Kansas City.

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I've been here for six years pastoring, so I've been pastoring for a little over 11 years now it's an independent sovereign grace Baptist church, so that's basically my religious history, anyway.

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Nice.

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So you are definitely going to be more educated on the subject of spiritual gifts and whether it's a thing that's still around or not, more than I will, because I grew up not really hearing too much about it or if I did, it was very vague.

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Like charismatics are super crazy, weird.

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Stay away from them was about as much as I got from my upbringing and just what I saw just seemed unnatural, uncomfortable with speaking in tongues and all that stuff that some of them, some of the teachers at my Christian high school did that too.

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I just was always put off by it because I didn't.

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One, I didn't know enough about it and two, it just was weird to me.

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I had been to churches where they did things like that, other things like that other things.

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I have a grandpa who believes that if you don't speak in tongues then you're not a true Christian, which I've never believed that.

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I don't know where it says that in the Bible.

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But why don't you share with us your opinion and your evidence, I guess, to back up your position?

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Yeah, sure.

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So when I grew up I didn't know anything about the charismatic movement.

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I hadn't ever been exposed to that before.

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It was probably when I became an adult, I suppose, that I learned about it and seen some videos of some pretty crazy stuff with the tongues and all that I learned eventually from a sermon from my pastor about the sign gifts and how that they expired.

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They were only used during the first century and then they were not extant anymore in the church.

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Just to give you a brief biblical defense of that position, because I don't think a lot of Christians they may know intuitively that there's something wrong with it.

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It just doesn't seem right.

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But I don't think a lot of times they could give you Bible verses to prove why we don't have those gifts today, because it would seem like cherry picking.

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It'd be like well, there's a lot of other stuff in the New Testament and you say that that's around today, but why aren't the sign gifts, why aren't the tongues and prophecy and things like that around?

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It actually goes back.

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It was prophesied back in the book of Malachi, in Malachi 7.15,.

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It's a prophecy of the Messiah.

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It says there that according to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt, will I show unto him marvelous things.

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If you look in the context there in the last half of that chapter, it's definitely a Messianic prophecy.

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It's talking about Jesus coming and casting our sins into the depths of the sea and so on.

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So this is a prophecy of Jesus coming.

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It says, according to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt, talking about the nation of Israel, will I show unto him that is the Messiah marvelous things, and when you do some comparative scripture you see that marvelous things are signs and wonders, the miraculous things.

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So there's a prophecy that in the days of the Messiah there would be miraculous.

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Israel spent 40 years coming out of Egypt.

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They left Egypt.

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They spent 40 years in the wilderness before they got to the promised land.

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During that 40 years it was characterized by signs and wonders.

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And Moses began to do miracles when he went to Pharaoh to tell him to let his people go.

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He cast a rod on the ground and it became a serpent, turned the river into blood, and all those miracles that he did.

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And then the parting of the Red Sea, of course.

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And then during that whole 40 years the clothes didn't wear out.

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He spoke to the rock.

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Water came out of the rock.

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The Lord gave them manna from heaven, gave them quails.

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He did all these miraculous things for them.

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After 40 years they went into the promised land.

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Then the miracles ceased.

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There weren't miracles after that point, not regularly anyway.

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There were some times where, like with Elijah or Elisha, some specific times, some special times where there would be some miracles, but in general the miracles ended after that 40-year period.

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So here's this prophecy telling us that when the Messiah comes, there's going to be something according to that, which means corresponding or matching to that, something similar to that.

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So when Jesus comes, the first miracle he does at the very this says this beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana.

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So this began the clock of the beginning of miracles.

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So this first miracle was the beginning of a series of miracles that would last for 40 years, just like it was when Israel came out of Egypt.

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You think about it.

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But Moses was a type, like a figure of Jesus.

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He brought the people out of bondage.

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He brought them to the promised land.

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Jesus brought us out of bondage to the promised land, right To the heavenly.

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Like a figurative vessel kind of thing.

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Yes, and so, in the same way that Moses showed signs and wonders in his ministry, Jesus showed signs and wonders in his.

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So if you do a little bit of math, 40 years from the beginning of Jesus' ministry to 40 years later is about 70 AD approximately, depending on there's a bit of discrepancy of when Jesus was born, Was it 4 BC or 2 BC or something like that.

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But anyway, roughly about 70 AD, 66 AD, somewhere in there the miracles would have ended.

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People that would be familiar with biblical history.

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That number should ring a bell, because 70 AD is when the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem and all the Jews were either killed or taken captive into all nations.

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So the Jewish nations ceased at 70 AD.

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There was two purposes given for the sign gifts.

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There are two purposes given for them in the scripture.

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The first one was to convince the unbelieving Jews.

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1 Corinthians 1.22, I think it is, says the Jews that they sought a sign.

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When God would send them a prophet, he would also send signs along with that prophet to prove that the prophet was from God.

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So they were accustomed to this.

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Jesus said to another man in John chapter 4, except you see signs and wonders, you will not believe.

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So the Jews needed a sign for them to know that Jesus was the Messiah.

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And they knew that the Messiah would do signs and wonders.

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It would say that he would heal the sick and give sight to the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf.

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So there's all these prophecies that he would do these wonders.

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So that validated that Jesus was the Messiah.

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Furthermore, his apostles it validated that they were the apostles of Christ to the Jews.

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So the Jews could see these signs that they were the apostles of Christ to the Jews.

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So the Jews could see these signs that they did.

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The second purpose for the signs was to confirm the word of God spoken, because at that time, when Jesus began his ministry, and then for the next 40 years, as the apostles were preaching the gospel and writing epistles, writing letters to the churches, the New Testament was in the process of being written.

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Those letters to the churches ended up being our New Testament, but at the time they didn't have the New Testament right, there was none.

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So to confirm the word given by the apostles and prophets, the signs again were given.

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It says that in Hebrews, chapter 2, that the Lord confirmed the word with signs and wonders and Jesus told them in the Great Commission to go and preach the gospel in all the world and he said that these signs would follow them.

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So there'd be signs and wonders with the preaching of the gospel of the apostles.

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So by 70 AD there is no Jewish nation anymore.

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There are no Jews in Jerusalem to be convinced by signs and wonders.

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By 70 AD at least all but one book of the Bible was definitely written.

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There's some speculation as to when Revelation was written.

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It appears that it was written in the 90s.

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Some people believe it was written before 70 AD, but regardless, the vast majority of the New Testament was written by 70 AD, but regardless, the vast majority of the New Testament was written by 70 AD.

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So when that time comes, there's no Jews to convince and the word of God has already been given.

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So the purpose for the sign gifts then ended.

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They weren't given for, they would just go on forever, for just for us to show off and have fun with or something.

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There was a defined purpose for them.

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So this matches up with that prophecy in Micah 7.15.

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It also matches up with what the New Testament says in 1 Corinthians 13, in the great chapter on charity.

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It says there that whether there be tongues, they shall cease.

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Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

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Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail until that which is perfect has come.

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And it says and when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

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So when the apostles and the prophets were giving the New Testament, they were giving it piecemeal, part by part.

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When Paul wrote a letter to the Ephesians, that's part of the New Testament revelation.

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When he wrote a letter to the Ephesians, that's part of the New Testament revelation.

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When he wrote to the Colossians, that's part.

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The Thessalonians, that's part.

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When he writes to Timothy and to Titus, that's part of it.

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Philemon, that's part of it.

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John writes his epistles, peter writes his epistles, john writes the revelation.

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When they wrote all these parts and they prophesied to the people before it was all written down, that was all part of the revelation and they were each given their part.

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So that's why he says we know in part, we prophesy in part, when that which is perfect has come, and perfect means complete.

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So when the New Testament revelation was complete, all the books are written, all the God has said everything that he wants to say, and that's all been spoken and then written down, then there's no reason for the parts anymore.

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The parts were revelation, prophecy, tongues and the like.

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So in that passage Paul was telling us at that time, before the gifts had gone away, he was telling us that there was a time coming when they would go away, they would fail, they would cease.

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Fail meaning not that they would not have their effect, but fail means to end in that context.

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So that is, in a nutshell, why we don't have the signs and wonders today, along with the prophecy in tongues, would be healing as well, casting out devils probably.

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I'm thinking of even taking up drinking deadly things and not being harmed, or taking up serpents and not being harmed, like Jesus talked about there at the end of Mark.

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So all of those miraculous things were all grouped together.

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Along with that would be the gift of special wisdom, special knowledge where the apostles could know things that you could only know supernaturally.

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Paul could look at a man and know he's a child of the devil absolutely with certainty.

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He didn't have to examine a man's fruit like we did.

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He could know things like that.

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So when that period of signs and wonders ended, all that stuff ended because there was no purpose for it anymore.

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So, in a nutshell, that's what I believe the scripture teaches concerning the spiritual gifts, the miraculous spiritual gifts.

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There are ordinary spiritual gifts that we still have today, of course, like exhortation and teaching and giving and things like that, but the miraculous spiritual gifts ended by the end of the first century.

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Well, thank you for the details.

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I think it's very important because a lot of people probably don't know that.

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I know I didn't know any of that and I can guarantee none of my churches I went to ever went that in depth explaining any of that.

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Like you said, I didn't know anything about it until I was well into my adult years.

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I was searching out information on my own, so I watch podcasts now and listen to stuff where they're telling me these things, but it's very nice to have a pastor who's talking about it.

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I did watch your YouTube video that you had sent me about it and it's a snippet of what you just shared with us too.

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I'll put it in the show notes.

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That way, if anyone wants to share it with a friend or family member, they can share that.

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I know with everything that you just said, you did upset some people who are listening who believe they have these gifts.

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So let's be clear If we're not on the same page about this, you let me know.

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But I believe neither of us are saying that God can't use people, if he really wants to, to bring about any of these things.

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But the thing is is that we don't have those gifts.

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God has the gifts, just like what he used to do back with the Old Testament prophets.

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If he needed them to do something, he helped them.

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He empowered them to do it.

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His Holy Spirit was the one doing the power.

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It wasn't them having the gifts themselves.

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I think that's where a lot of people go wrong now is they think they have the gifts of speaking in tongues, of healing, of delivering people from demons, but that's not the case.

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It doesn't mean that God can't do those things if he absolutely wanted to and needed to.

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But you and I are both saying that those gifts are gone.

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They aren't necessary.

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We don't need them.

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The final revelation is here.

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We don't need any more revelation.

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So for people to say that we still have that or we still have to do that in order to be true believers is wrong.

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Would you agree with that?

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Yes, yeah, definitely To your first point.

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Of course God can still do miracles.

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The Bible says that God, who alone, doeth wonders.

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So God can and still does do miracles today, but men do not have those gifts.

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Where men can do miracles at will, like they could at one time, it was still by the power of God, but men don't have those gifts, don't have those gifts.

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With regard to the idea that speaking in tongues is necessary for a person to be a child of God or a Christian, or something that was never true, even when there were gifts, because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, he asked a rhetorical question do all speak with tongues?

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I mean clearly the answer is no.

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Do all prophesy?

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No.

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Are all apostles?

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No.

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He asked these series of questions.

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The answer to all the answer is no.

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Do all prophesy?

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No.

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Are all apostles?

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No.

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He asked these series of questions, the answer to all of which is no.

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Not everybody was an apostle.

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Not everybody spoke with tongues.

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Not everybody prophesied.

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It says that the Spirit gave to every man severally, as he will.

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So the Spirit gave some men those gifts, but not all people had them at any point in time, and certainly not today.

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The other thing that I would ask people and I have when I've talked with charismatics is they would probably agree I think most of them would that whatever we do ought to be according to the scripture?

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If it's not according to the scripture, then it's not biblical.

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If it's not biblical, then it's not in keeping with what Christ and the apostles taught.

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If it's not that, then it's not Christian.

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Right?

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So it has to be according to the scripture.

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In Isaiah, chapter 8, I think it is, it says to the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word, it's because there's no light in them, right?

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So the scripture is emphatic about that.

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And Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14, that if any man think himself to be spiritual, let him acknowledge the things that I say are the teachings of the Lord, something to that effect anyway.

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So if we're going to be doing something, we better make sure that it's according to the scripture.

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1 Corinthians 14,.

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The whole chapter is about tongues and prophesying.

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Now, this would have been instruction that was pertinent in those days when the church in Corinth had those gifts.

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But if you look through 1 Corinthians 14, there's a whole bunch of instruction given there on how to exercise the gifts.

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For one thing, you could only have two or at most three people speaking in tongues or prophesying in a church service.

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It says let them prophesy by course, which means one by one, like in successive order With tongues.

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It says let one speak and another interpret.

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And he says if there is no interpreter, then let him keep silence.

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So there's not to be any speaking in tongues if there's not an interpreter.

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It's only supposed to be two or three at most, and one at a time, right?

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So in most of these charismatic services that I've never been to one, but the ones that I've seen videos of it's anything but that.

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It's everybody speaking at the same time.

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It's chaos, it's confusion, which in the very book of 1 Corinthians 14, that chapter it says God is not the author of confusion.

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So it's confusion.

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You get a bunch of people speaking in tongues and no interpreter.

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They're all doing it at the same time.

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There's more than three yep, so they're not meeting any of the qualifications for it.

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I guess if I haven't offended anybody yet, then I may as well go ahead bring it in first corinthians 14.

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It also says but I suffer not a woman to speak in the church and this is in the context of the spiritual gifts of tongues and prophesying.

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So women, I know this.

00:18:52.006 --> 00:18:57.528
I mean people would hate me for saying this, but this is what the Bible says that women aren't supposed to speak in church, just period.

00:18:57.528 --> 00:18:58.490
They're not supposed to teach.

00:18:58.490 --> 00:19:02.413
It's not because God hates women, it's just because that's the way that God's set things up.

00:19:02.413 --> 00:19:09.432
But what happens in these charismatic churches it's not only men speaking in tongues, it's women speaking in tongues.

00:19:13.940 --> 00:19:19.125
So you have men and women which women aren't supposed to be speaking in tongues in the church service and there's more than three of them at a time and they're doing it all at the same time and there's no interpreter.

00:19:19.125 --> 00:19:24.031
So it is completely unscriptural on every basis, pretty much.

00:19:24.031 --> 00:19:42.636
So that alone should tell anybody looking at it that there's something wrong with this, because if the Holy Spirit is inspiring these people to do this, then we have a problem, because the Holy Spirit is inspiring people to do something that directly contradicts what he inspired the Apostle Paul to write down in 1 Corinthians 14.

00:19:42.636 --> 00:19:48.471
So that's another good argument to use that you might be able to get through to somebody with.

00:19:48.471 --> 00:19:49.313
I've used it.

00:19:49.313 --> 00:19:51.467
I mean you might get through or you might upset them.

00:19:51.828 --> 00:19:52.109
Yeah.

00:19:53.123 --> 00:19:53.712
But, anyway.

00:19:53.732 --> 00:20:03.174
So, yeah, I tend to see that a lot of charismatics don't want to have an actual conversation about the subject.

00:20:03.174 --> 00:20:12.201
You either believe what they believe or you're of the devil and you don't really have Christ in you, which is not fair.

00:20:12.201 --> 00:20:17.512
I mean, how would it be if our side were to do that to them?

00:20:17.512 --> 00:20:28.211
I like to think that a lot of the people that I listen to, that I follow the podcast and everything you included we give a fair examination of the situation.

00:20:28.211 --> 00:20:33.182
We use biblical principles, we are kind and generous about it.

00:20:33.182 --> 00:20:39.286
For the most part, I would say a lot of the people who are doing it probably don't have malicious intent with what they're doing.

00:20:39.286 --> 00:20:43.161
They're just going by what they grew up with or what they learned.

00:20:43.161 --> 00:20:49.113
I mean, I was stuck in some stuff that I thought was biblical until I realized it wasn't.

00:20:49.113 --> 00:21:05.384
Some people just get into it, and for somebody to be that volatile, to say that they're of the devil if they don't agree with what we're saying, it just is really closed-minded and shuts down any possibility of having a civil argument, debate, whatever you want to call it.

00:21:05.384 --> 00:21:06.569
That should be a red flag to some people who might be in.

00:21:06.569 --> 00:21:06.650
It.

00:21:06.650 --> 00:21:08.155
Is that debate, whatever you want to call it.

00:21:08.155 --> 00:21:11.667
That should be a red flag to some people who might be in it.

00:21:11.667 --> 00:21:12.250
Is that?

00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:19.411
Well, if you can't question it, then there might be something wrong here, because you should always be able to question things.

00:21:19.411 --> 00:21:21.782
The Bible tells us to test the spirits.

00:21:21.782 --> 00:21:28.102
We're supposed to follow the Bible, biblically teaching, so we should be doing that.

00:21:28.102 --> 00:21:29.909
We should be testing the spirits.

00:21:29.909 --> 00:21:34.050
If they don't want you to test them, then you should test them even more.

00:21:42.121 --> 00:21:43.222
Who doesn't love free?

00:21:43.222 --> 00:21:44.545
I know I do.

00:21:44.545 --> 00:21:50.780
That's why I created a free seven-day devotional for those who want to go deeper with God.

00:21:50.780 --> 00:21:59.426
It's a short devotional full of encouragement, guidance and impactful Bible verses related to everyday struggles we all go through.

00:21:59.426 --> 00:22:10.554
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00:22:10.554 --> 00:22:14.550
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00:22:14.550 --> 00:22:16.386
The link is in the show notes.

00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:17.964
Yes, that's right.

00:22:17.964 --> 00:22:39.490
The thing is, I think something that is probably unique to the charismatic people that are in the charismatic movement is that I think I can never get in somebody else's head necessarily, but I think a lot of their faith is rooted in an emotion They've had an emotional experience and I've never spoken in tongues, thank the Lord.

00:22:39.490 --> 00:22:44.104
But people that have and I know people that have that have come out of it.

00:22:44.104 --> 00:22:45.126
My wife was one of them.

00:22:45.548 --> 00:22:47.602
I've known other people also my mom, yeah, your mom.

00:22:47.663 --> 00:22:49.288
Yep, so it does happen.

00:22:49.288 --> 00:23:01.406
But when they have that experience and if it wasn't faked I think some of them just fake it they just start making noises just because everybody else is doing it and they feel like they're not spiritual if they don't do it.

00:23:01.406 --> 00:23:07.325
But some people I've talked to said that they actually did speak in some language.

00:23:07.325 --> 00:23:10.188
They didn't understand it, but there was some power that came over them.

00:23:10.188 --> 00:23:14.151
When you have that experience, then it's really hard to argue.

00:23:14.211 --> 00:23:21.057
With an experience it's hard to argue with an emotion, because all they can think is I know what I felt, I know what happened to me.

00:23:21.057 --> 00:23:28.313
Then the idea is that the implication is well.

00:23:28.313 --> 00:23:37.521
If you're telling me that the Spirit of God doesn't give these gifts anymore the Bible also says that there are lying signs and wonders which are done by the power of Satan Then the implication is well.

00:23:37.521 --> 00:23:44.025
If the Spirit of God is not giving me this ability and yet I'm doing it, then could it be another spirit?

00:23:44.025 --> 00:23:46.531
Of course that's a very uncomfortable thing to even think about.

00:23:46.531 --> 00:23:48.523
So then that evokes a negative emotion.

00:23:48.523 --> 00:23:52.923
So you have a positive emotion which got them to believe it in the first place.

00:23:52.923 --> 00:23:58.884
Then when you bring up arguments against it, then that elicits a negative emotion and nobody likes that.

00:23:59.365 --> 00:24:07.587
So I think that's why, in my experience, it's virtually impossible to talk somebody out of the charismatic movement.

00:24:07.587 --> 00:24:11.744
The only thing that I've ever seen that works is just God doing it.

00:24:11.744 --> 00:24:14.631
God just changes somebody's mind.

00:24:14.631 --> 00:24:18.184
I've never seen it done by argumentation, pointing out the verses.

00:24:18.184 --> 00:24:25.141
I think it's just something where God just changes the mind and makes them realize that there's something wrong with this, and when they see it, then they see it.

00:24:25.141 --> 00:24:28.007
But until that point I don't want to say you're wasting your breath.

00:24:28.007 --> 00:24:31.212
But my experience has been you're not going to get through to them.

00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:32.806
Yeah, I agree with that.

00:24:32.806 --> 00:24:39.753
I mean, strong emotions are big in these kind of movements.

00:24:39.753 --> 00:24:46.048
That's all you have to hold on to and, like you said, you can't negate what they felt.

00:24:46.048 --> 00:24:48.587
I mean, how are you supposed to debunk that?

00:24:48.587 --> 00:24:51.025
It's their personal experience.

00:24:51.265 --> 00:24:56.663
I've been to some churches where they've been rocking back and forth like they're in labor.

00:24:56.663 --> 00:25:07.193
It was really weird People dancing on stages with banners, drawing on stage while they're trying to preach or whatever, and it's just all is really distracting.

00:25:07.193 --> 00:25:15.232
But if it was so distracting to the point that it brought people to the truth of the gospel, then this wouldn't be such a big movement.

00:25:15.232 --> 00:25:22.623
So whatever they're doing is working for what they're trying to accomplish, which is illicit emotions.

00:25:22.623 --> 00:25:26.931
I mean, there's so many creative spirits out there.

00:25:26.931 --> 00:25:29.035
People love creativity.

00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:31.548
I'm a writer, so I've got the creative bug.

00:25:31.548 --> 00:25:58.171
If I were a artist I would probably love to see someone on stage drawing whatever they're drawing or they feel God's telling them and you're not paying attention to what the pastor's saying and you know you're not listening fully when your emotions, your heart is engaged and the Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things, you can't trust what it says.

00:25:58.171 --> 00:26:00.015
You can't follow it.

00:26:00.015 --> 00:26:15.621
I love watching the good Hallmark movies the cleaner, cleaner ones nowadays and you know all those types of good fuzzy movie type of things but they the thing that irritates me the most is they say follow your heart.

00:26:15.621 --> 00:26:16.923
I always shout out.

00:26:16.923 --> 00:26:20.131
I was like don't do that, that's wrong, don't do that.

00:26:20.771 --> 00:26:21.799
And it's true.

00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:23.661
So trust us in his heart as a fool.

00:26:23.902 --> 00:26:27.804
Yeah, and that's that's where they get you is.

00:26:27.804 --> 00:26:31.987
They are pulling you into your emotions, into what your heart says.

00:26:31.987 --> 00:26:36.088
If your heart is feeling it so strongly, how can it not be from Christ?

00:26:36.088 --> 00:26:40.010
But think about when you were stuck in sin.

00:26:40.010 --> 00:26:46.694
You felt so strongly about what you were doing that it felt right that how could this not be okay?

00:26:46.694 --> 00:26:48.936
I feel so great doing it.

00:26:48.936 --> 00:26:50.198
I feel so good.

00:26:50.198 --> 00:26:57.282
Afterwards Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but it's like you don't continue doing something unless you feel good about it.

00:26:57.343 --> 00:27:02.980
So when you were in your sin, you felt good about it, otherwise you wouldn't have kept doing it.

00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:05.721
It's the same high.

00:27:05.721 --> 00:27:11.705
It just looks different because now you've got the fluffy worship music you're listening to.

00:27:11.705 --> 00:27:14.468
It's all about you, with what they're teaching you.

00:27:14.468 --> 00:27:19.471
They're speaking all these wonderful promises with quotation marks over you.

00:27:19.471 --> 00:27:22.272
They're telling you all these good things God wants for you.

00:27:22.272 --> 00:27:23.534
They're skewing the Bible.

00:27:23.534 --> 00:27:25.355
They're dancing on stage.

00:27:25.355 --> 00:27:26.596
They're making weird noises.

00:27:26.596 --> 00:27:29.397
They're telling you, if you aren't doing it, then you're doing it wrong.

00:27:29.780 --> 00:27:38.404
It's like you get caught up in the emotion of everything and, like you said, there's people who do it because they don't want to be left out and they just fake it.

00:27:38.660 --> 00:27:50.642
Or there's people who really are feeling something and who knows what it is, but they're in the moment of it and that's their experience and you can't take that away from them.

00:27:50.642 --> 00:27:54.028
I absolutely agree with you, 100%, that the only way that they're going to come out of it is God.

00:27:54.028 --> 00:28:05.787
He's the only one who can change a person's heart, mind, uncloud, take the scales off, however you want to say it, he is the only one who can do it and I absolutely agree with that.

00:28:05.787 --> 00:28:21.521
For anyone who is listening, who has tried, beat their head over a wall, trying so hard to get people to understand, you aren't going to get them to understand, so let that be a freeing moment for you to know that it's not up to you, it's up to God.

00:28:21.521 --> 00:28:22.765
So you pray for them.

00:28:22.765 --> 00:28:33.227
You share what you feel God is telling you to say to them, but you pray for them because that is all that we can do is what God asks us to do, and pray.

00:28:33.488 --> 00:28:41.943
He'll do the rest when it's time, and until somebody has that road to Damascus moment, like the Apostle Paul, their mind's not going to be changed.

00:28:41.943 --> 00:28:51.953
That could be other doctrinal matters or whatever, but especially with the charismatic thing because Paul said in is it Acts 26, 9, possibly?

00:28:51.953 --> 00:29:04.071
He said that I verily thought I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth, and so in his mind he truly thought he was doing the right thing.

00:29:04.071 --> 00:29:08.551
Jesus said there would come a time when he that killeth you will thinketh that he doeth God's service.

00:29:08.551 --> 00:29:13.022
Paul was one of them.

00:29:13.022 --> 00:29:14.288
He was literally consenting to the death of Christians.

00:29:14.288 --> 00:29:15.113
He was hailing them off to prison.

00:29:15.113 --> 00:29:15.978
He was compelling them to blaspheme.

00:29:15.978 --> 00:29:17.241
He was doing terrible things.

00:29:17.241 --> 00:29:33.404
He thought within his heart, in a pure conscience, that he was doing the right thing, and no amount of argumentation, no amount of trying to beat him over the head and telling him that he was wrong and showing him all the scriptures that show that Jesus was the Messiah, none of that was going to change his mind.

00:29:33.404 --> 00:29:46.210
Until the road to Damascus, when the Lord appeared to him, his scales were taken away, as you said, and it was only then that he could see the truth and not before.

00:29:46.250 --> 00:29:49.411
Then I was also thinking about when you were talking about the emotion.

00:29:49.411 --> 00:29:55.634
There's an example, at least one that I can think of, in scripture where emotion does not help faith.

00:29:55.634 --> 00:30:05.617
It actually hinders faith, because I think a lot of people think obviously a lot of preachers, charismatic preachers and other preachers think that emotion is the key to faith, because that's what they try to.

00:30:05.617 --> 00:30:10.500
They try to get people worked up, they try to to pull in their heartstrings and their sermons and things like that.

00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:18.393
I'm not saying emotion never has any place in preaching, but they clearly try to use it to affect conversion.

00:30:18.472 --> 00:30:31.583
Yes, and the example that I think about is when, after Jesus was resurrected and he appeared to the disciples, they were so elated that it says that they believed not for joy.

00:30:31.583 --> 00:30:34.871
They were so excited that they actually didn't believe.

00:30:34.871 --> 00:30:43.770
It's almost like they were so excited they couldn't believe it and they're seeing him right before their eyes and it was just unreal to them because they were filled with so much emotion.

00:30:43.770 --> 00:30:48.282
He finally says okay, give me a piece of fish, give me some honeycomb, let me eat here.

00:30:48.282 --> 00:30:51.984
Let me show you that I'm real, I'm actually resurrected from the dead.

00:30:51.984 --> 00:30:59.211
You'd think that their emotions, their happiness, would have helped them to believe and it actually prevented them from believing.

00:30:59.211 --> 00:31:10.482
So much emotion going on and, like you said, they're distracted by the, the drawings, or distracted by whatever the theatrics.

00:31:10.482 --> 00:31:13.388
If there was any truth being spoken, it just they.

00:31:13.388 --> 00:31:20.147
They miss it or they they miss the non-truth yes, they miss the lies.

00:31:20.528 --> 00:31:26.723
They don't notice that either because they're so enamored, you know, with all of the, the feelings that are going on.

00:31:27.285 --> 00:31:34.732
It's definitely it's dangerous and it leads people astray easily.

00:31:34.732 --> 00:31:45.942
What about those who are making all these different prophecies nowadays about Trump, the upcoming election, all these different storms?

00:31:45.942 --> 00:31:53.010
I don't know if you've followed any of the people who I don't know what they weather warriors I think that's what they call themselves.

00:31:53.010 --> 00:32:02.445
They're always prophesying that they're going to get rid of a storm or they can do this and call it that I don't know, but none of them have come true.

00:32:02.445 --> 00:32:11.361
You would think that would take away someone's credibility, but it doesn't seem to do that.

00:32:11.361 --> 00:32:18.534
They just either get more followers or the people they currently have just keep following, because I guess they're hoping maybe the next one will be right.

00:32:18.894 --> 00:32:22.722
But the Bible clearly all the prophecies came true.

00:32:22.722 --> 00:32:28.875
There was not a prophet who was like oh well, this one didn't happen because someone didn't have enough faith, or Jesus must have been asleep at that time.

00:32:28.875 --> 00:32:29.579
That's why this one didn't happen.

00:32:29.579 --> 00:32:31.650
Because someone didn't have enough faith, or Jesus must have been asleep at that time.

00:32:31.650 --> 00:32:34.477
That's why this one didn't happen, or something.

00:32:34.477 --> 00:32:36.701
What is your opinion on that stuff?

00:32:37.150 --> 00:32:41.159
Yeah Well see, the problem is once again is biblical illiteracy.

00:32:41.159 --> 00:32:53.814
The average believer, the average professing Christian, is not familiar enough with the Bible to understand what the Bible teaches about prophecy and prophets, to know how to identify a false one.

00:32:53.814 --> 00:33:00.396
Because back in Deuteronomy it was in chapter 18, it gives two qualifications for a prophet to be legitimate.

00:33:00.396 --> 00:33:04.355
Number one everything he has to say has to be in accord with the word of God.

00:33:04.355 --> 00:33:08.974
So if he says let us go follow other gods, god says don't be afraid of him, don't listen to him.

00:33:08.974 --> 00:33:10.259
He's a false prophet.

00:33:10.259 --> 00:33:17.015
So if he tells you anything that's contrary to the scripture, he's a false prophet.

00:33:17.015 --> 00:33:21.675
Like the verse I said earlier in Isaiah to the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word, it's because there's no light in them.

00:33:21.675 --> 00:33:27.736
So that's the first test is does he say anything that is contrary to the scripture?

00:33:27.736 --> 00:33:30.501
When you listen to these guys, they almost always do.

00:33:30.501 --> 00:33:36.010
Their doctrine is always in some way contradictory to the scripture and in many cases almost entirely.

00:33:36.010 --> 00:33:45.892
Secondly, with prophecy, the second qualification was that if the prophet makes a prophecy and it doesn't come to pass, he's a false prophet.

00:33:45.892 --> 00:33:59.279
Now, in this world, if you're some financial guru and you have a newsletter and you make calls on certain stocks and if you get 70% of them right, you're doing well.

00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:04.363
You follow a guy that gets 70% right, you're going to be a millionaire, let alone 99% right.

00:34:04.363 --> 00:34:06.505
Nobody's even close to that.

00:34:06.505 --> 00:34:18.818
But I mean, even if you get more right than wrong, if you're 55%, you're doing awesome right and people have no problem following somebody like that, because you know we're all human, we make mistakes, but he's right more times than he's wrong.

00:34:18.818 --> 00:34:20.570
It doesn't work that way with prophecy.

00:34:20.570 --> 00:34:27.018
If you utter a thousand prophecies and one of them doesn't come to pass, you are a false prophet.

00:34:27.018 --> 00:34:29.601
That's what the Bible teaches back there in Deuteronomy.

00:34:29.601 --> 00:34:41.157
So with these people that you're talking about, if they make any prophecy about the weather, about Trump or about anything else, if they're wrong even one time, the person's a false prophet.

00:34:41.157 --> 00:34:41.938
Don't listen to anything they say.

00:34:41.958 --> 00:34:45.931
The Bible says, because the devil can also mimic God's prophets, right?

00:34:45.931 --> 00:34:46.572
The devil can.

00:34:46.572 --> 00:34:50.715
He can make prophecies and sometimes get them to come true.

00:34:50.715 --> 00:34:56.018
He can't do it 100% of the time because he doesn't have control of all things and all events like the Lord does.

00:34:56.018 --> 00:35:14.358
But he can have a thousand followers on your newsletter and you write 500 of them and say stock A is going to go up next week.

00:35:14.358 --> 00:35:17.393
You write the other 500 and you say stock A is going to go down next week.

00:35:17.393 --> 00:35:21.731
Well, if stock A goes up, then you write those 500 that you said it was going to go up.

00:35:21.731 --> 00:35:28.559
And you say, hey, stock B is going to go up, then you write half of them, tell them that, you write the other half and you tell them it's going to go down.

00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:31.905
And by the time you do that several times, your list is whittled down.

00:35:31.965 --> 00:35:38.023
But you have people that have heard you say that something's going to come to pass, and it does every single time.

00:35:38.023 --> 00:35:40.137
In their mind they don't realize what you've been doing.

00:35:40.137 --> 00:35:54.925
All right, so men can do crafty things and make it look like they can predict the future and that they have some insight into the future and they can make prophecies, but they're always going to get it wrong at one point, because only God really knows the future.

00:35:54.925 --> 00:36:01.182
So in that sense God's made it so easy for us, because it's not like he says hey, just weigh it.

00:36:01.182 --> 00:36:04.059
If they get more right than wrong, then go ahead.

00:36:04.059 --> 00:36:05.376
They're probably one of my prophets.

00:36:05.376 --> 00:36:07.150
No, he says if they get even one wrong.

00:36:07.150 --> 00:36:08.371
So that's all you have to know.

00:36:08.371 --> 00:36:09.233
You don't have to.

00:36:09.233 --> 00:36:13.195
It doesn't matter, the 99 doesn't matter, it's the one that they got wrong.

00:36:13.496 --> 00:36:20.842
So I think like you were saying, god is not a God of confusion, he's a God of clarity.

00:36:20.842 --> 00:36:23.644
So he tells us to test the spirits.

00:36:23.644 --> 00:36:25.967
He tells us what a false prophet is.

00:36:25.967 --> 00:36:29.751
If they get one wrong, they're false.

00:36:29.771 --> 00:36:31.690
End of story I mean it's clear as day.

00:36:31.690 --> 00:36:36.293
It should be very easy for us believers to discern.

00:36:36.293 --> 00:36:51.239
Out of all the different things that we need to be on the lookout for spiritually, I feel like prophecy should be the easiest thing that we can figure out if it's true or not, because I feel like it's the most clear, it's the most easy to figure out.

00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:52.701
You get one wrong, you're done.

00:36:52.701 --> 00:36:54.380
Yeah, you had one shot.

00:36:54.380 --> 00:36:57.161
You blew it, sorry, I mean yeah.

00:36:57.161 --> 00:36:57.922
And the other?

00:36:57.983 --> 00:37:00.764
thing is, too, with with revelation.

00:37:00.764 --> 00:37:06.106
So sometimes it might not be a prophecy of future events, but people give you a revelation from the Lord.

00:37:06.106 --> 00:37:18.092
The Lord told me to say this or say that, but the thing is, if you think about it, the prophecy, the revelation is complete.

00:37:18.092 --> 00:37:20.016
We saw that from 1 Corinthians 13 earlier in the conversation.

00:37:20.016 --> 00:37:29.010
It says that God hath spoken unto us by his Son, so which hath is a present perfect, and so God is not speaking to us through his Son still, or through the apostles, or through the prophets.

00:37:29.010 --> 00:37:32.239
He hath spoken, so the prophecy is is complete.

00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:46.822
So if you have a completed prophecy or revelation of the scripture but you still believe that there is an open revelation from god, the only thing that a prophet could say would be what is already been said, what is in keeping with what's already been said.

00:37:47.329 --> 00:37:50.492
So-called prophet comes and gives you a word from the Lord.

00:37:50.492 --> 00:37:55.057
If it's exactly what the Bible says, then he's added nothing to you.

00:37:55.057 --> 00:37:56.699
He says I have a word from the Lord.

00:37:56.699 --> 00:38:00.882
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life no man can come with unto the Father, but by him.

00:38:00.882 --> 00:38:04.786
Well, thanks, but I just read that in John 14, 6, right, it's nice.

00:38:04.786 --> 00:38:05.831
Okay, good.

00:38:05.831 --> 00:38:08.215
I'm glad the Lord told you that, but he's already told everybody that.

00:38:08.215 --> 00:38:14.485
But if he comes and he says something that's different than that, well then he's added to the word right.

00:38:14.550 --> 00:38:22.719
And the Bible, both New and Old Testament, says that anybody that adds to the word right and Revelation says you'll have the plagues added to you in this book.

00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:28.416
It says in the Old Testament thou shalt not add unto the words or diminish aught from them that the Lord's given.

00:38:28.416 --> 00:38:31.960
So there's no purpose for a continued revelation.

00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:36.626
You're either telling us what God's already told us or you're telling us something in addition to what he's told us.

00:38:36.626 --> 00:38:44.056
Now you're in the realm of the old false prophets, like in the book of Jeremiah, when they're saying thus saith the Lord, and he hasn't said.

00:38:44.056 --> 00:38:49.976
They have a vision, they have a dream and they're just speaking out of their own heads and making it up.

00:38:49.976 --> 00:38:52.463
The Lord says don't listen to them and don't be afraid of them.

00:38:52.682 --> 00:38:55.679
Yeah Well, thank you so much, Chad, for coming on.

00:38:55.679 --> 00:39:00.001
This has been a very enlightening and encouraging conversation for me.

00:39:00.001 --> 00:39:14.579
I'm hoping for others and not that they're just already sending in messages of hate and anger, but that they've actually taken the time to listen to what we've been saying before they actually hit send.

00:39:16.510 --> 00:39:17.255
Well, I hope so too.

00:39:17.255 --> 00:39:18.996
Thank you for having me on.

00:39:18.996 --> 00:39:22.322
I've enjoyed it and I hope that it's been helpful for somebody out there.